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Elizabeth Sandifer

Elizabeth Sandifer created Eruditorum Press. She’s not really sure why she did that, and she apologizes for the inconvenience. She currently writes Last War in Albion, a history of the magical war between Alan Moore and Grant Morrison. She used to write TARDIS Eruditorum, a history of Britain told through the lens of a ropey sci-fi series. She also wrote Neoreaction a Basilisk, writes comics these days, and has ADHD so will probably just randomly write some other shit sooner or later.Support Elizabeth on Patreon.

20 Comments

  1. David Gerard
    May 5, 2016 @ 8:24 pm

    Moldbug’s Austrianism shines through. Remember how he proposed that the problem with cancer research was that it wasn’t run like the software industry, and even Hacker News weren’t convinced?

    “The treatment of Steveoma is effective if Steve gets better. If not, it isn’t. The sample size is 1 by definition.”

    That post and the comments are fractal not-even-wrongness. From Mises to Carlyle via Hoppe indeed.

    Reply

  2. Roderick T. Long
    May 5, 2016 @ 9:02 pm

    Phil,

    As a member of the Austrian School and a defender of praxeology, I look on this project with concern. It looks like a plan for a smear or hit piece rather than a serious attempt to engage with our ideas.

    Three points:

    a) The fact that Republican politicians mouth Austrian ideas as cover for their actual, quite different policies is hardly the Austrians’ fault. And of course we on the libertarian left argue that Austrian ideas actually support free-market anti-capitalism better than they do the neoliberal capitalist agenda.

    b) “They are not taken seriously by any actual reputable academic economists”: Well, F. A. Hayek — whose “Facts of the Social Sciences” and “Counter-revolution in Science” are based on Mises’ praxeology — won a Nobel prize. I would think that makes him a reputable academic economist. Lionel Robbins — whose “Essay on the Nature and Significance of Economic Science” was likewise based on Mises’ praxeology — was the head of the London School of Economics, which I likewise think would make him a reputable academic economist. Israel Kirzner — whose work is likewise heavily based on Mises’ praxeology — is a member of the NYU econ dept., which is fairly reputable I would think. Etc. Calling economists non-reputable doesn’t make them so.

    c) Praxeology doesn’t reject empirical data; but it does make the fairly common philosophical point that there are conceptual constraints on what interpretations of data are possible. See my article on praxeology here:
    http://praxeology.net/antipsych.pdf

    Best,

    Roderick

    Reply

    • Elizabeth Sandifer
      May 5, 2016 @ 9:24 pm

      The goal is roughly “serious attempt at an engaging hit piece,” but obviously we’ll see how we do. It’s also mostly not researched yet, so many thanks for the points in #2, which I imagine would have surfaced when I got around to more than absolute top level research, but is still a useful starting point that probably sped research up a good deal.

      I imagine the existence of a left-libertarian approach will at least come up. Certainly it’s something I’m interested in, as my own politics lean that way. (Jack’s less so, I think, but I’ll not speak for him.) I don’t know how much of a focus it’ll be, because this is fundamentally a book that’s coming at the topic via people like Moldbug and Beale instead of via intelligent and interesting people, but there’s an obvious analogy to draw between that approach and looking at Marxism via Tankies, and that’s something to at least acknowledge.

      Put another way, this comment probably reduced the odds that this will be a cheap smear considerably, but it’s probably still not going to be your favorite thing I’ve ever written either.

      Reply

      • Jesse
        May 5, 2016 @ 10:31 pm

        You might be interested in Theodore Burczak’s attempt to develop a Hayekian socialism. His book is here.

        Different from Roderick’s sort of left-Austrianism, but there is overlap.

        Reply

        • Elizabeth Sandifer
          May 5, 2016 @ 10:34 pm

          Yeah. Obviously there’s some “this needs to be an essay not a book” trimming of the topic to do (as well as some “make sure we stay in our lane” trimming), but yeah.

          Reply

  3. David Gerard
    May 5, 2016 @ 10:18 pm

    “As a member of the Austrian School and a defender of praxeology”

    “we on the libertarian left”

    what the fuck is that supposed to be “left” of

    Reply

    • Elizabeth Sandifer
      May 5, 2016 @ 10:24 pm

      Nah, left-libertarianism is totally a thing. Socialist anarchism is very closely related. It’s probably the conventional political ideology I’m most sympathetic to, inasmuch as I retain any fondness for the utopian project.

      Reply

      • Mark P.
        May 5, 2016 @ 10:51 pm

        Left-libertarianism is very much a real thing in the real world outside the US. Go look at Ken Macleod, the British SF writer and former Marxist/libertarian, for one example.

        In the US, the label libertarian is automatically assumed to mean ‘Republicans who smoke pot’ and if you present yourself online as a libertarian, you’ll be automatically attacked as a rightist by the brain-dead, who are ignorant of all else but the American Culture Wars.

        Nevertheless, as Phil suggests, left-libertarian in the rest of the world probably equates to anarcho-syndicalist. Figures like Chomsky and Murray Bookchin — as far as I understand Bookchin — would not be unrepresentative.

        Reply

        • Elizabeth Sandifer
          May 5, 2016 @ 10:56 pm

          To be fair, if you identify as a libertarian online you’ve also chosen to pick a label that has particular valences, presumably for the specific passions it inflames, so you can hardly complain when people make the assumptions you’re consciously setting them up to make.

          But yes.

          Reply

      • David Gerard
        May 7, 2016 @ 12:42 pm

        I mean specifically “Austrian school” being combined with “left libertarian” was what I was WTFing about.

        Reply

    • Spoilers Below
      May 6, 2016 @ 1:54 pm

      It’s definitely a real movement, and one of my old classmates from college was heavily involved here in the states. I don’t know how convinced I am about the utility of their tactics, but I think it’s an interesting.

      You can find more info here: http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/

      Reply

  4. David Anderson
    May 5, 2016 @ 10:41 pm

    The Austrian School rejects the utility of both empiricism and mathematics to economics.
    Mainstream economics on the basis of mathematics and empiricism accepts the Black-Scholes equation.(*)
    The Austrian School frankly looks entirely sane by comparison.

    So do Marx and Keynes look entirely sane. I have no idea whether if you read only one book on the subject you should read Economics: The User’s Guide by Ha-Joon Chang, as I have only read four books on economics. It would however be my pick.

    (*) The Black-Scholes equation is the result of mathematically and empirically grounded research and can be used to determine the price at which investing in a financial product is free of risk. Myron Scholes won the Nobel Prize for it. He subsequently ran a hedge-fund. The hedge fund collapsed spectacularly.
    The Black-Scholes equation was widely used by investment banks. You may remember investment banks collapsing the economy spectacularly.
    The Black-Scholes equation is still as far as I can tell widely accepted among mainstream neoclassical economists as empirically and mathematically grounded.

    Reply

  5. Jack Graham
    May 5, 2016 @ 11:24 pm

    The reason I’m doing this really is, essentially, because Phil asked me to. And because it seemed like a laugh.

    Phil doesn’t really need me for this job. You don’t need a Marxist to attack the Austrian School. Non-Marxists have done so quite successfully, on their own terms. RationalWiki does a pretty good job.

    Also, I am not an economist and i make no claim to be.

    But then Marx too, in a very real sense, wasn’t an economist. He was a critic of political economy. As Eagleton says, Marx is, like Derrida, an anti-philosopher rather than a philosopher – in the sense of being opposed to the mainline philosophical project of his epoch.

    All the same, Phil clearly wants a Marxy critique of the economics, so I’ll do my little best… heavily cribbing the work of finer Marxists than I.

    I suspect that the finished product of my collaboration with Phil could potentially be as much a debate between the two of us as it is an argument of the two of us against the Austrian School.

    That could be interesting.

    Reply

    • Nicholas Caluda
      May 6, 2016 @ 4:58 am

      Jack, this is slightly unrelated, but thanks for talking about the two natures of Shelley’s Demogorgon – Shelley’s weird approach to violence and philosophical necessity in that mid period of his poetry is hugely fascinating to me. For a supposedly non-violent poem, “The Masque of Anarchy” sure has a lot of blood. The seemingly celebratory “Prometheus Unbound” is strangely violent, too, at least in a natural way, and it ends with Demogorgon echoing Jupiter’s cry of “victory.”

      So what I’m saying is you should somehow manage to fit this minor point that I’m obsessed with into this completely unrelated essay on economics. Thanks in advance.

      Reply

    • David Anderson
      May 6, 2016 @ 7:32 am

      I don’t think there’s any good reason for saying Marx isn’t an economist. As far as I can see all such reasons boil down to: if you support the interests of power you’re objective but if you oppose the interests of power you’re ideological.
      As far as I can see, Marx has as good a claim to the true heir of classical economics, that is, the tradition of Adam Smith, Malthus, et al, as modern mainstream neoclassical economics does. The labour theory of value was an entirely orthodox concept within classical economics. From an economics standpoint, the differences between Marx and contemporary classical economists is that Marx tries to take into account phenomena (such as industrialisation and profits and why business cycles seem to happen when the theory predicts they shouldn’t happen) that seem to fall squarely into the remit of classical economics.

      Reply

      • Jack Graham
        May 6, 2016 @ 9:05 am

        Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Marx didn’t know his shit, or practice economics. I’m saying that to call him ‘an economist’ in any simple way is to elide him with the discipline he was actually trying to explode.

        Reply

  6. Anonymous
    May 6, 2016 @ 12:24 am

    With regards to the left-libertarian angle and the relationship between Marxism and the Austrian School, you might want to check out the work of Kevin Carson; the first chapter of Studies in Mutualist Political Economy, for instance, is dedicated to trying to square praxeology with the Labor Theory of Value. I don’t find it particularly successful mainly becaues I don’t think anything good can come from praxeology (and I think he misses several parts of the thrust of Marx’s theory of value, but given that his political project is different from Marx’s, that’s to be expected), but he proves that he’s at least read the people he argues with. And the leftist in me finds his work unusually likeable for a pro-market background—he is emphatically in favor of unions and worker control of business, for instance.

    Mind you, I don’t know that his work is taken seriously by much of the world at large, but at worst he’s still less of a crank than, e.g., Rothbard or Herman-Hoppe. (And I suspect he is in fact a helluva lot better but I haven’t read closely enough to vouch for this.)

    I honestly don’t know how relevant this might be to your interests; somehow given your general approach I doubt it will, but it’s an unexpected connection that might be at least worth checking out?

    Reply

  7. Jack Graham
    May 6, 2016 @ 9:26 am

    I realised why I didn’t understand “That’s just an is implies ought fallacy” – for some reason I was reading ‘ought’ as ‘outright’.

    It was late.

    Reply

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